The Visionary Files

The Key Points of Curriculum Mapping or Auditing to Ensure Your Learners Receive the Promised Outcomes with Steve Corney

• Adriane Galea • Episode 84

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 In todays' episode, the teacher becomes the student! 

Listen along as Adriane willingly takes the hot seat by turning the tables and inviting Steve - a  curriculum-design expert - to review her latest 12-month program, Sustainable Growth Lab.  Steve walks Adriane through his method for curriculum mapping and creates a spreadsheet in real time that assesses her most robust course to date. 

In short - it's course-building GOLD.

Quick overview of what we cover: 

  • The 5 columns that belong on a curriculum mapping spreadsheet
  • The tools that can tell you if your content is truly engaging your learners (or not!)
  • How to weave macro and micro outcomes into your course mapping
  • The best ways to get your learners to demonstrate knowledge gained
  • Why it's important to go beyond what you want your learner to know and do, to what you want them to feel at the conclusion of your course
  • Why "free-range chicken" learners are the least engaged
  • Steve's persuasive argument for locking down content
  • Why your price point should not dictate the amount of support you give your learners
  • How to hold your learners accountable with kindness
  • The secret weapon Adriane employed in her last program that blew Steve away with its cleverness

CHECK OUT STEVE + ADRIANE'S PROJECT: 

LISTEN TO MORE EPISODES WITH STEVE:

  • Episode 45, How Bro Marketers Have Destroyed Digital Learning 
  • Episode 55, Marketing With Integrity in a Post-Bropocalypse World 
  • Episode 63, The 5 Elements of a Successful Digital Sales Event Funnel, Part 1
  • Episode 64, The 5 Elements of a Successful Digital Sales Event Funnel, Part 2 
  • Episode 67, The Critical Metrics Most Coaches and Course Creators Aren’t Tracking for Long-Term Success
  • Episode 70, The Secret Weapons of Generating More Leads and Converting More Sales 
  • Episode 73, Trust Isn't Enough to Sell Courses or Group Coaching Programs: Extending Your Lifetime Customer Value Via Respect and Consent
  • Episode 74, Delivering Outcomes With Mad Respect - How To Improve Your Curriculum and Course Design and Your Learner's Experience
  • Make More Money + Sales with your Established Course or Coaching: Episode 76, part 1;  Episode 78, part 2; Episode 80, part 3

RESOURCES: 

  • Click here to join Adriane’s $7 Marketing Strategy Membership
  • Click here to get on the waitlist for Sustainable Growth Lab
  • Click here to work with Adriane and the Soulpreneur Agency
  • Book a call with Soulpreneur to grow your business

CONNECT W/ STEVE: 

Speaker 1:

Now, if you're selling, if you're selling a set of swipe files, if you're selling a resource repository or a shitload of content with no real direction, it's not a course. A course or education, in this case, like in this, from this perspective, has a start, it has a middle, it has an end, it has outcomes. You're trying to actually ensure that knowledge is acquired, knowledge is understood, knowledge is able to be applied.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the Scaling Lounge, a podcast for established service-based business owners who believe in working smarter, resting often, playing always and dreaming bigger. I'm your host, adrienne Gallia, and I want to help you create time, financial and lifestyle freedom by scaling with systems, strategy and the support of a team, so that your business is able to grow, with or without you. Let's get to it.

Speaker 1:

Right, what are we doing today? We're doing some stuff.

Speaker 2:

I'm enjoying it.

Speaker 1:

We are. So Adrienne and I have complimentary, complimentary but specialized skill sets. My skill set, if you haven't figured it out, apart from talking absolute smack, is curriculum course, curriculum course, creation course, review course, analysis course, performance improvement, all that jazz, right, that's my specialty. That is my specialty. So today I am going to do what I do in the real world on the podcast and review Adrienne's Sustainable Growth Lab curriculum.

Speaker 2:

And hopefully we'll find a way to make this applicable for you out in the world. Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1:

And let me preface it by saying that there is no right way to do this. There is a wrong way which is not doing it, but the way that you choose to, the way that you choose to lay out your course, right, there's, there's there's a couple of schools of thought so you could do in our world, when we, when we build online training or learning or courses for companies, the process is very much like we do a research phase, so we do a deep dive into the research. We'll go and interview that will interview the subject matter experts. We'll go and interview the learners as well. That's a really good thing that you guys should do before you even start building, interview your perspective learners to find out what they want, what they know, what they don't know, how they like to learn that sort of stuff.

Speaker 1:

And then, once we, once we do all that, we don't start building the course. We build what's called a storyboard. Now, storyboard is probably a outline plus the actual look, feel, where content's going to be placed on the page, where video is going to be used, the script for the video, the script for the animation, the, the illustrations that we use, the activities, the. All of it gets done before we build it. Because, unlike Kajabi Teachable, think if Xenla learn worlds, learn dash, which is very much video and text in our world, we actually end up building all sorts of crazy stuff. There's there's there's no rules in terms of where we put our quiz. We can put our quiz on slide two and then have it like kick them to slide 17. Or, you know, we can have an interactive thing where there's like cards that they can pick and drag and drop.

Speaker 1:

So, because we do a little bit more advanced course build in the corporate world, we have another few steps, but fundamentally, you do all of your research and analysis. That gets you to the point where, oh, I know what I'm going to put in my course curriculum. And then you open a Google doc or you open a spreadsheet or you create a table in a document, and that's probably the first bit of feedback for you is maybe have a few columns on this bad boy instead of just the, just the, the dot point, the dot point list, because some of the things that I'm going to ask you will be sort of like have you got this? Like, where is this mapped to which? Which thing does this relate to? And it's just easier, sometimes in a, in a table, and I know how much you like table tools, air tasker, base camp notion. Do you know what air table is? Air tasker air tasker is air tasker is like a marketplace where you can get anyone to come and do anything.

Speaker 1:

So it's like oh well, you could take it there if you wanted to, or you could be like oh, I need someone to say it if you want it to be.

Speaker 1:

No, I don't think so. I don't think that's that's possible at all. But it'd be like oh, I need, I need someone to help me put my IKEA furniture together. Or I need someone to help carry my shopping bags from the ground floor to the third floor because my legs hurt. You could do that. Yeah, I need someone to come and play table tennis with me. You could do that.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, what, what would what, what if I were going to? So? So the people know, what I've got right now, like it literally is just a list. Of this is the first part, and then this is the yeah.

Speaker 1:

So I would say you've got like, you've broken it into. So, adrian for, and maybe we'll, maybe we'll put some screenshots of this somewhere so that you can have a like, you can have a bit of a, a squeeze or a look, but basically you've got phase and then you've got topic, right? So I would say, like a phase one would be module one and then the. Then there would be like the topics within the module, right? So don't get caught up, folks on semantics around. Oh, is it module? Is it topic? Is it phase? Who gives a shit? Like, at the end of the day, it's here's the, here's the bucket. The bucket could be module, the bucket could be phase, the bucket could be, you know, lesson or theme. But then ultimately, if you create a bucket, anything in the bucket needs to relate to whatever the buckets about. So if the buckets blue, you wouldn't have any red things in your bucket. You put the red things in the red bucket, you'd have the yellow things in a yellow bucket. And that's really important to look at, right, because too many people sometimes go, oh, I'm going to have, you know, phase, phase one or module one, introduction, and they start teaching wrong, right?

Speaker 1:

So if you're going to do like an, and what Adrian's done here which is really clever, is to do a phase zero or a module zero, which is sort of like the prequel. So in there it's like welcome. How do you like, here's some high level, here's some high level overview stuff. It's a great place.

Speaker 1:

When you do a module zero or a phase zero, it's a great place to, you know, get people set and, depending on how you like, depending on how you then structure or offer your program, it's also a way for them to like taste test some of your program, because none of this content is sort of like hardcore IP. So what you could do in some platforms is they allow you to just like allocate, like, oh, turn this on for free, turn this on for like free preview, and so, if you wanted to, if you wanted to demonstrate during your sales process or during your marketing messaging, if you wanted to say, hey, we've got a route, like, we've one of your key like benefits is your platform and you really like the way that your content set out, you go, hey, click here to experience what the learnings like, you can preview the first, the first, the first module, the first phase, and so, yeah, I think that's a, really I think it's a really nice way of doing it, and now you've got a marketing tool there.

Speaker 1:

Now you got a marketing tool. Yeah, you get a little free, free, little marketing. You could do that. But yeah, you could do that a number of ways. But yeah, most platforms allow you to offer free, free parts of your program as preview. I know teachable does, know Kajabi does, but talk to me if you're like, if you're, if you're on the fence about platforms, are you not sure what I, what I am seeing too much of now is too many people are picking platforms just because they're next door, neighbor, or their brothers, fathers, cousins, former roommate likes using Kajabi, and so then it must be right for you, wrong, like we've. We've unraveled a few this this past week where they've like spent lots of time and effort going into a platform that doesn't fit them and then we have to find the one that fits them and it's just gross. It's just it's time and money, but I digress.

Speaker 2:

It's cost prohibitive at first, that we yeah, we can really go down the rabbit hole of.

Speaker 1:

I think maybe it's worth, maybe it's worth mentioning, maybe it's and it gets an honorable mention.

Speaker 2:

It's, I mean it's this point, like I'm on Kartra at this point it would take is very good. It would take an act of God to get me like there. I have so much on there and Kartra as a platform is.

Speaker 1:

Kartra as a platform is one of the is one of the more solid. One of the more solid options. I think if you're, if you've got most of that, most of our people, that we that we're talking to in in service driven scaling and some of the stuff that we're doing, we're like you've already got your programs and they're not performing as well as they used to. Platform would likely be a factor, but at the same time, if you're, if you're on the fence or if you're just like dipping your toes into this water, be very careful what platform you pick, because you need to make sure that you can grow into it. So if you want to like, for a perfect example is like if you want to, if you want to do more than just offer multiple choice quizzes as assessment, you need to be very careful what platform you pick, because there'll be platforms that say they do it.

Speaker 1:

They say they do assessment, but you get in there and you invest your whole time building your program. You spend hours, weeks, months, even years sometimes, and then you realize that you can't do the one thing that you must be able to do. Guess where you got to go to another platform. So it's not the, it's not the platform's fault, it's never the platform's fault because these third party platforms they are allowing you to get access to, you know quarter of a million dollar systems that would cost that's what a cost company's minimum to get their own learning management system. You're getting them for like $70 a month, you know, $100 a month and at the upper end, sort of $300 a month gets you the Rolls Royce of of platforms. So yeah, just be, just be careful out there, folks. It's a jungle out there. It's a jungle out there.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so I want to go back to this. I'm in airtasker airtable. What, what, what columns would you add? What, what? How should this be?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so yeah, cool, cool. So so some of the questions that I'm going to ask Adrian to think about and we're not going to like, I don't think, for the purpose of this episode, it's not as we've said before, it's going to be great information for Adrian and Adrian's going to return the favor on me. She's going to return serve in a few episodes time where she'll she'll show her marketing genius on some of my marketing stuff. But for you, the listeners, it's not going to serve you. It's not going to serve you for me to go through every single topic and every single module, one by one, and go hey, this is what you should do, adrian. I'll tell Adrian what she needs to do regardless, and then she'll either listen or she won't. You guys, let's let's have a poll. If Steve told Adrian what to do, what would she do? It? Yes or yes or no? Let's run the poll now.

Speaker 2:

Oh wait, I don't need to. The answer's no. What's the? What's the over and under? What do you think? What's your, what's your guess?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, what, what, what, what? It's tipping, it's tipping, it's tipping. No, you wouldn't be able to tell Adrian what to do, steve.

Speaker 2:

You don't think I would listen.

Speaker 1:

I think you'd just justify you. You'd justify your way out of it with your 5.0 GPA. This is a yeah, this is a chance for this is a chance for me to just go through, but to make it, to make it valuable for the people listening, it's going to be more around like what things should you do at this at this stage? So I think that's really. I would also like to clarify that I am.

Speaker 2:

I am open to feedback.

Speaker 1:

Of course you are. Of course you are. I just needed to get you that on, I needed to get that on recordings and I needed to get you to send me, to send me, to send me, to send me, to send me, to send me that little snippet.

Speaker 2:

What that? I'm open to feedback.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm just going to have it looped and I'm just going to press a button and it'd be like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm.

Speaker 2:

I can give you a better sound bite than that.

Speaker 1:

That's cool. So what do you? What do you do? I think the moral of the story is there's no, there's no right way to do this, but I'm hopefully what I can provide you is I can provide you a more efficient way to get through this, so that you're actually gonna create a pretty sweet document.

Speaker 2:

So, but I think it would be. It would behoove people to know, like if they were gonna go set up their own curriculum spreadsheet. Since you've brought that up, how would you lay that out?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, perfect question. So what I would do is I would go, I would go just like you've done here. You've got, obviously, like your phases or your modules and the name for them. So maybe that could be the name of the sheet if you're using Excel or Google Sheets, or it could be just the top heading for that section. But then what you would have is you would have your topic name and then you would have a column for, like what content is being taught in that topic. So like similar to what you've done, which you would say Adrian's done, like a welcome to SGL sustainable growth lab and then overview how to be successful and then using the community and telephone course, which is great. So that tells me high level what's going on.

Speaker 1:

But then, from a learning design perspective, that's the bit that's missing and that's the bit that I would interrogate if this was brought to me and gone. Oh hey, what do you think of this curriculum? Should I build this program as it is, or this program isn't performing the way I want it to perform? What should I do Now if I receive this as a existing course that's not performing all the things that I'm gonna say here to put into the spreadsheet as a document template are things that I would ask for and need to be provided in order to be able to answer that question. Now, because we're looking at a curriculum document, you could also give me access to the actual course, but we're using the document today, which is absolutely perfect.

Speaker 1:

So I would have a column and the order of these columns is up to you, but I'll just shoot them as they come out of my head I would have what's the stuff that's being taught for this topic summary, like a paragraph summary or a dot point summary. These are the things that we're gonna teach. Cool, yep. Then what, or how, does this topic relate to the outcomes that have been promised to the learner? Now, it may be that you've promised so in sustainable growth lab Eenie, meenie, mindy, mo, adrian, give me, help me out what's something that they get Like, what's something that they learn from the growth lab curriculum?

Speaker 2:

I wanna answer your question with a question. When, in relation to outcomes, like there's a macro outcome and then there's micro outcomes, are we plotting both? Are you powering me?

Speaker 1:

Now is not the time to be critically analytical, my furry little friend, because I'll get there, promise you. I'll get there, but for the people, for the people? The people may not know that they're a macro and micro outcomes. They may just know that on their landing page that they've sold into the course, they've said a few things that you're gonna get. Usually it'll be like by the end of this program or by doing this program you will. So what's one of those things that you say on there?

Speaker 2:

By the end of this program. There's a macro and there's a micro.

Speaker 1:

Just give me an answer, just an answer.

Speaker 2:

The big one would be by the end, that they will be able to their business, will be able to not just run but grow without them by the end of the year probably not fully by the end of the year, but on the way- That'll do, that'll do.

Speaker 1:

By the end of this program, you will learn how to make your business run without you.

Speaker 2:

Not just run grow.

Speaker 1:

Not just run, grow Cool, Folks listening. That is a macro learning outcome.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

That's a big one. That's a big one, right.

Speaker 1:

So, why we do that? Right, because what we're doing is the purpose of this is to make sure that the catalyst for this would typically be hey, my program's not doing as good as it used to do, or it's not performing the way I want it to do. If you haven't built your program yet, fantastic, you're going to get a head start because you're not going to have to wade through not doing some of this stuff and then have to come back and have this conversation. But my assumption in this is that, hey, this program, this program's not doing what I want it to do, or the student, like the engagement rate's not as high as it should be. What's going on? That's not the case for you, adrian, but this is just going to help you, like even further dial this in.

Speaker 1:

So if one of the macro outcomes on the sales page or the landing page or your marketing material because that's the thing that makes people buy if it's, hey, we're going to help you be able to grow your business to a point where it doesn't need you anymore, or, like you can, that's macro. So we would go all right for welcome to SGL as a topic. Like your first topic, there'd be a column that says which of your macro or your big sales page objectives does this relate to? Now, the answer is going to be most likely, you'd be able to stitch every single topic in your course to justify that it meets that macro thing. But the exercise is important that you do it, because what it's getting you to do is it's getting you to think critically about is this thing, is this topic actually actually actually actually helping them acquire the skills that they need to realize what you promised them on the landing page?

Speaker 1:

So that's the first thing that I would do in terms of, like, starting to map your outcomes with the content of your course. And it's an easy one, because most of it will be like and I'm not surprised that I'd see, like I'd see, a lot of ticks. There'd probably be no ticks, sorry, no crosses. It'd all just be, you know, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Fair comment.

Speaker 2:

What do you mean by that? I have a question, but what do you? Can you clarify what you mean by that? There'd be all ticks like they would all they would all tick something.

Speaker 1:

You'd be able to relate. So if you've got big macro goals on your sales landing page, you should. You should be able to relate everything that's in your program curriculum. You should be able to tick the box that, hey, does this meet this macro, this macro one? Yes, it does.

Speaker 2:

So so in a way I have more outcome questions.

Speaker 1:

Shoot.

Speaker 2:

I know that I've got like macro outcomes micro outcomes because it's a long program it's 12 months.

Speaker 1:

It is yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And I did that very intentionally. I've been told by so many people that I should not do 12 months because people are gonna be afraid to commit to 12 months. It is arguably a long time Now. I have safeguards where someone could get out of it if they wanted to. However, we're not going after just one thing for all 12 months, but that's in order to get the big thing promised, like I would not be doing my job if I didn't hold someone to. You've got to commit to 12 months.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I understand.

Speaker 2:

Just 12 months long endeavor. Micro outcomes, micro outcomes, all the smaller things that they're gonna have along the way. But then the way that I set up the curriculum is each. The reason I put phases instead of modules is the idea is that each phase they will have achieved something by the end of it and those are separate from, like nano outcomes, I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, nice, don't get caught up on names, nan, but I hear what you're saying, I get your question. So, yeah, folks, at home you can structure your course in a number of ways as well. But what we're doing now, by just identifying in your column about macro outcomes, like you're just making sure that you're covering off the stuff that the most important thing to cover off is whatever you say on the thing that makes them pay you money. You have to be at the end of the program If you ask the question, hey, do you now know how to? And just list the things off that are on the sales page, do you now know how to do those? Do you feel confident in applying that knowledge? If the answers know, like there's another thing that you should be doing in your existing course business is course feedback and review. If you're getting nos there, you've missed this step.

Speaker 1:

So then when I get involved, which is the audit stage, that's the first thing I look for. It's the easiest, it's one of the lowest hanging fruits. Like, hey, show me and map, that's what we're doing. We're doing curriculum mapping, which is a very that's a very fun job for people that like spreadsheets, I don't. I don't. I'm grounded Like I've grounded in it. I've done like thousands of them in my career. But it's not something that I get out of bed before and go, whoa, I can't wait to. I can't wait to get my spreadsheet out and do a drop down multi-segmented list. Hooray, I love it. Instead, that's why I hang out with Adrian, because she loves it. So, yeah, that's the first point, that's the first place to start. Then what Adrian's asked is she's like whoa, hey, steve, I'm pretty clever because you know I've got 4.0 GPA. You know nerd loves spreadsheets, love everything, awesome, I love that. I know what a 4.0 GPA is Like. That's like perfect scores, dude, it's amazing. You know these people Perfect scores, incredible, perfect, perfect, perfect scores.

Speaker 2:

What you've done is and it's not fair.

Speaker 1:

it's not fair to not let the crowd know that you're tertially qualified in learning design as well, and you have run programs and courses for a while.

Speaker 2:

So let's just be let's just give credit where credit's due. I got a good point. No, my learning design master's degree sort of Bravo, bravo. I even got an A plus in one of the classes. That's the one and only time it happened, and that doesn't surprise me.

Speaker 1:

Doesn't surprise me Anyhow. But then what Adrian's talked about here is that she's attempted to and successfully break her phases into micro-programs. So they're basically. They're basically, if you like, because one of my bits of feedback is yeah, a 12 month program is monstrous. So how you would lay this out to reduce like learner fatigue would be maybe phase zero has its own tile on your course list and people can enroll in that and they just see you know phase zero.

Speaker 2:

And it's not as in. We're not even there yet.

Speaker 1:

We're not even. We're not even there yet, but that's a. That's a. That's a not less intimidating way to reduce cognitive load and make people feel that sense of accomplishment. But what Adrian said that was really powerful is each of the phases is its own ecosystem, so each of the phases have a tangible outcome. That this is the key that I need to see on the spreadsheet somewhere is I need to see phase zero. How does it relate to the main outcomes that you've promised on your sales page? But then also, what are the? What are the micro outcomes that help realize the bigger ones? Because that's what that's the main thing that you said.

Speaker 1:

There is that I want to create a phase that has its own achievement, and that also is a fantastic strategy is to make sure that it's got its own achievement. We'll talk about achievement and that stuff in a second, but you need to be able to produce that in the document to know hey, phase zero has three topics. Those three topics relate to these macro outcomes that I've promised on the sales page. But what they also have is they also are teaching micro pieces or micro outcomes which, when combined, will give a macro tick in the outcome box. So I'll pause there. Does that make a bit of sense?

Speaker 2:

That does make sense. That makes sense, and I think it completely answered my question.

Speaker 1:

Good, it's well done. It's like I would say it's advanced in terms of structure, because, yeah, you're not expected People aren't expected to know learning, design, and so, yeah, being able to do that in that way. Now, I'm not saying everyone should go and now create a 12 month program and break it into phases and modules. You know, like that. But if you had a smaller program and you just had, like, module one is this, module two is this, module three is this, and there's three topics in each, you'd still be doing the same thing, right, so you'd still want to go. You know, module one is a blue bucket. Therefore, all the topics in the blue bucket are related to blue. Module two is a yellow bucket. All the topics in topic two are yellow. If you put a blue topic in the yellow bucket, it's not gonna help. It's not gonna help.

Speaker 1:

You wanna try and maintain a sense of consistency from a theme, from an objective, from an outcome and from a style perspective.

Speaker 1:

But when you then deal and overlay the outcomes in the spreadsheet, so what you can do is you can look at the spreadsheet now and go, okay, for phase one or module one, the overall outcome that that's, training or realizing is this one, and then it's made up of these little micro outcomes, which then for topic one of module one, or topic one of phase one it's.

Speaker 1:

This topic is, like you know, moving. So here's an example, right, so Adrian's got topic becoming a visionary CEO. So what is the like, what part of the main outcome is that realizing? There should be a column that says this is relating to how to step away from your business and let it run without you. But then also, if this might also be teaching them the importance of chief everything off at a scaling CEO, so it might be teaching them some. So one of the learning objectives now so this is now not what's on your sales page, but it might be by the end of this course, you'll know the difference, or you know, you'll know how to distinguish a chief everything officer compared to a scaling CEO, and so that would be an outcome that gets ticked there.

Speaker 2:

That's like my primary messaging point it's going from yeah, that whole thing is mindset, which is one of the four micro outcomes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, beautiful, beautiful. And if you've got micro outcomes like that. So what I'd be asking there is I'd be like you know Carpman's drama triangle with team dynamics. I'd be asking you, hey, demonstrate, like, demonstrate why that needs to be there and how it relates back to your. So there'll be a micro outcome which will be yeah, this relates to mindset and time dynamics, team dynamics awesome tick, but how does it tie back? And you need a pretty strong tie back to the stuff that you promise, because otherwise, folks, what happens is you could start justifying.

Speaker 1:

This is why it's good to get objective third parties in there that don't know the subject matter. You could start justifying everything that needs to be there, but just because you think it needs to be there doesn't mean that your learners think it needs to be there or that it's having the same desired outcome that you think it's gonna have, because you're gifted with the joy of knowing this stuff as an expert. So there'll always be my question, which is you know, does that need to be in there? Fight for it, adrian, like tell me why that needs to be in there. Don't tell me now, but like that would be the question that you would constantly ask yourself after you've done sort of like where does this fit in the outcomes world? Now, why does this deserve to stay?

Speaker 1:

Oh well, without this, they won't know the importance of team dynamics, and without team dynamics they can't become a scaling CEO, because the whole point of scaling CEO is to know the difference between that and achieve everything officer. And the chief everything officer is the reason that they can't step away from their business. Boom, there it is. That is the reverse engineering of micro through to macro, through to tick in the box, because now you could say well, hey, by the end of phase zero or module one, you've now learned the difference between chief everything officer and scaling. You've also learned the mindset that's required, which then? Do you feel comfortable that your mindset is now something that you can control to help move you from everything to scaling? Yes, beautiful, tick in the box. So that means they've realized something.

Speaker 2:

Nice. You know I love the reverse engineering.

Speaker 1:

I know you do, I know you love that, do you want?

Speaker 2:

another column.

Speaker 1:

There's more columns. There's more columns.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes.

Speaker 1:

I do yeah, so what I would be doing here is I would be doing learner engagement method, so that would be a column learner engagement method for each of your pieces of content that sit within your modules, that sit within your topics, right? So modules shouldn't have content themselves.

Speaker 2:

This is gonna be the thing that I don't like. That I struggle with, I think, is where you're going with this Is this field. Am I typing something into this?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you might type something you could have a dropdown. Chances are you're gonna. You're gonna have a dropdown with like two things.

Speaker 2:

Oh, maybe this is not what I think it is my crystal ball.

Speaker 1:

So learner engagement method is the way, the way that you're teaching this content right, the way that you're teaching this content. So overview of the program. Let's just do this. Overview of the program. How are you delivering that? How am I, as the learner, consuming that information?

Speaker 2:

You're asking me about mine.

Speaker 1:

That's a question. Yeah, so if I've got, a welcome to SGL.

Speaker 2:

I want it to be consumable both video and audio. It's gonna be a private podcast feed, but if they choose to do video they can.

Speaker 1:

Nice, so I log into. Yeah, let's just put it into the realms of your advancement. You know private podcast, that's cool.

Speaker 2:

I really like Pull up your Apple podcast feed and away you go.

Speaker 1:

Away you go. Yeah, so you're gonna log into something and you're gonna so. Typically, if I logged into your cartre of platform and I clicked on phase zero, topic one, welcome to SGL, Would it be a video of you going hey, welcome to SGL. That's standard for everyone, dude, that's cool. So I would put video slash audio as a learner engagement method.

Speaker 2:

Ah, okay.

Speaker 1:

And if you wanted to get really granular, you would be like talking head, screen share, slide show, animated video, something like that, mm. So what you would do is you would do that, so let's. And then, if we go like iny-meenie money you know, carpman's drama triangle with team dynamics is an example which is, you know, topic two within becoming a visionary CEO, you already know which macro outcome it relates to. We already know what micro outcome it relates to. We reverse, engineer back to make sure we get the tick in the box that it deserves to stay in your program. So what's the way that you're teaching that from a learner engagement perspective? Is it video? If so, what sort of video? What style of video? Is there any other things that you've got there Like is there? Is there, you're doing audio, which is great. So video, audio, cool. Are you giving text? Are you giving a workbook? What, what, what's, what's happening for that topic as an example?

Speaker 2:

Now you're getting into the things. That kind of that start to drive me crazy that I know I need to do a workbook and it just loses me. So transcript yes, I would like to provide a transcript for everything. Workbook is what? Like, I would like to do a workbook. I just don't have the patience to do it. Like, one of my big questions when we came into this was how, like where makes the most sense to put resources? How can I supplement? Because I'm much more of a like tell me what you need, tell me what what would be useful to you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2:

Just like coming up with resources is. So it just feels like a lot of pressure and then like I don't want to do with it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, you're not alone there. Resources are. Resources are a tricky thing, but I but just just to nail the point and then I'll talk to you about. I'll talk to you about some cool little tips and tricks, but the most the reason that we're doing this learner engagement method column is what I'll typically see is I'll see video text, video text, video text, the whole program. Right, and from that perspective, if you're just doing video and text, like hey, here's my video, I'm talking at you, here's my text where you can just read the transcript or it's a workbook, it's a very, very passenger driven strategy for the learner. The learner just becomes a passenger in the learning. Now, at times that's really good. But when it comes to the end and you're like, how do you, you know? Do you know how to do this? They're like, yeah, I remember you talking about that. Yes, do you feel confident that you can do this yourself?

Speaker 1:

Hmm I don't really get a chance to practice or do any application. Meh, maybe, and then what can you do? So, when it comes to outcomes, there's like these crazy models that exist in academia, but like, at the end of the day, by the end of the program, what do you want the learner to know, what do you want them to be able to do and how do you want them to feel? Like, if you can nail, if you can articulate that and then make sure that your program does that, that's gonna go a long way. But then one of the things that moves the needle is the way in which you package content. So, yeah, use video, use audio, but the main thing with a practical program like what you're doing is like what can you do to get them to think about the content that they've just learned? So to now answer your question about resources, it's like okay, so you've worked hard to maybe teach them something, and you have to right, you have to teach them something, and how you teach them is either text, audio or video or all three. Right, there's no problems with that. That's not a case of no, that's a bad way to do things. It's a great way to do it.

Speaker 1:

But what happens next. So do I have something Like? Do I have a question? Do I have an assessment? Do I have a thought provoking statement? That makes me reflect on something? Do something simple that you could do without any platform requirements is here's your Google Doc, it's your Google Doc template, which is broken into each of the phases, each of the topics. It becomes your journal At the end of each topic. What I want you to do is I want you to write down the five things that you took away, the two things, the three things, or ask them a thought-provoking question. Get them to actually do it, and then you can ask them to submit that as part of their thing, but that also becomes their version of a workbook. Because, just because you're going to create a workbook that looks sexy and has a cool font and really, really nice, sometimes the most effective learning tools and engagement tools are the ones that are just a blank Google Doc with some poppins in there.

Speaker 2:

With some poppins, I mean. I think I definitely agree with that. I'm not going to waste hours and hours and hours designing a beautiful document in Canva when, like, who's filling that out?

Speaker 1:

But it's not even fillable.

Speaker 2:

Well, that's the thing, it's not fillable.

Speaker 1:

It's not fillable.

Speaker 2:

Even if you transpose it to become fillable, it's still not practical.

Speaker 1:

So you've got that. You've got something as simple as a Google Doc to embed in there and so in your introductory module you'd introduce. So if you had a topic in your intro phase zero that was like how to get the most out of this program, that's a really useful topic to put in. There is like, hey, we've got the Google Doc, this is how we use that, we've got this. So then when you go through, you might be like, oh, how does that relate to any of the outcomes? What actually is the global master outcome, which is this course is fucking awesome. It's this course is awesome outcome. That sits there as well.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, if you wanted to take it further, there are platforms out there that allow you to highlight course text. So if you put your transcript into the course platform, I can highlight it and save it into my notebook. I can create my own notebook of notes, just like when you're in high school or college You'd highlight bits of your textbook. Come back later. You put your poster notes in there. You can do that digitally, just on some platforms and some tools, but the simplest version of that is a Google Doc Answer some questions, write some stuff down. What were the three takeaways. That would be really useful. But what you do really well is because you've broken, so because Adrian's chosen to break a program into clear, distinct phases or clear distinct modules. You also have a at the end of the module. There's a check-in process and I think that's worthwhile talking about that now. So we have in our spreadsheet, we have what's the learner, what's the engagement method.

Speaker 2:

Can I pause you and ask a question that came up out of what you just said?

Speaker 1:

Do it.

Speaker 2:

Do it? How much would you let people in on why you're doing what you're doing? So, like in relation to like if I have, so there's, you know. So there's phase zero. The second module is the becoming the visionary CEO module. The third lesson inside of that is the Cartman's drama triangle with team dynamics. Would you put like a flag in there somewhere that says, like this is going to like the outcome of developing a CEO mindset, like would you? Would you clue people on that, or is that extraneous? Is that too much? Is it helpful for people to know? Is it?

Speaker 1:

You could like you could just put it as like a, like a dot point, like at the top, it's like the by the end of this topic, you will. Or like hey, just just so you know, maybe it's at the end of the topic, just so you know, this is helping you, this is helping you realize this, like it's just sort of like planting that in their mind, that, oh shit, I should pay attention.

Speaker 2:

Would you do that, each video or each resource that you're giving them, or would you do, like a roundup?

Speaker 1:

Look, if it was me if it was me, I'd probably have like a. I'd probably have like a power like if I was doing like a talking head video where I'm showing slides, which is a that's a very common way to do things I'd have a. I'd have a slide to say where are we at, where does this topic fit into the ecosystem of this whole program? And it'd just be like you are here, so that might be your outcomes. It might be, it might be your main outcomes, but that's a nice way to signpost and let people know where they're at.

Speaker 1:

Hey, welcome to topic seven. This is where we're at in the process and it shows them how far they've come. It shows them where they're at now and then it just says like, by, by learning this topic, this is going to help you do XYZ, and that should relate back to, you know, one of the main goals of the program. That's nice and it takes look what? That took 10 seconds. But that 10 seconds helps the learner go. Oh shit, I should not multitask while I learn this, or I should pay attention here.

Speaker 2:

Is there a way you would do it If I were, if I already had this all built? Because I don't. This is a unique situation where we're not auditing something that's preexisting. But if I did already have this built, how would you, course, correct that If I was like I? Don't want to re-record my entire thing, would you? Oh, totally.

Speaker 1:

You just, yeah, just screenshot, like, just create, create those slides and have the screenshot embedded into the course like into the course player somewhere, so it might sit above the above the video and might sit below it, but just somewhere on that topics page in your platform. It would be there. Yep, for sure, don't be afraid, like, don't be afraid folks to tell you learners where they're at, like they sort of cut that. That's sort of a sort of a assumption or like a like a don't do, like you shouldn't do that. Yeah, you need to tell you learners where they're at. They don't know what you know. Like you got to, you got to make them feel comfortable, because as soon as they start to feel overwhelmed or a little bit afraid or a little bit unsure, that's where they're going to stop coming to rock up to your classes, especially, especially something that's that's self-directed, that has an element of self-directedness. Yeah, cool, cool, cool, cool. So you've got the, you've got the learner engagement method, so that's cool. You've got video, text, audio, you've got. You know, maybe you've got something practical, maybe it's a live call, maybe it's something like so, whatever that is for that topic, right, that's what you've got to, that's what you've got to put in and it can have multiple things. So we've got that.

Speaker 1:

Now we're wanting to go how in the in this next column, how are you confirming knowledge or understanding? How are you confirming knowledge or understanding? If you wanted to have bridged that, you could bridge it as assessment, but it's like I think it's important that it's not just assessment. Right, it's not assessment for assessment's sake. It's how are you getting the learner to confirm and demonstrate their understanding? That's why that sentence is better than just assessment. But if you wanted to, if you're running out of room and you didn't want to wrap text, you could have that, and so in that section, that is all about you being the master and you knowing what they need to be able to know and show in order to progress or tick the. Yeah, you know you the content, the subject matter, the activities. The point has been received and understood.

Speaker 2:

So what are you doing? What are you doing there? That's what you had started to go to. Is that? Is that where you had started to go? Was that I was checking? Yes, I had homework and check-ins. Yeah, yep.

Speaker 1:

So what Adrian's done in her program is yeah, at the end of each module there is a homework, and then there's some check-in, there's some check-in process. Now Adrian's made a bold, bold, bold move, which says homework to unlock phase two. Will she padlock it though? That is the question. That is a bold move, folks.

Speaker 2:

So you've got free range.

Speaker 1:

You got answer is yes, you're going to. You're going to actually lock it down.

Speaker 2:

Nice. Yeah, it will be well explained in the beginning, but yes, I do have a question about that, but I'll I'll let you continue.

Speaker 1:

Totally. If you let your learners free range chicken all over the place, right, and this is, this is a. This comes out of a place of fear and concern that the learners will get upset if you don't let them consume whatever they want whenever they want. You got to check yourself before you wreck yourself, folks, because that is going to be, that is going to be a surefire way to reduce engagement in most, in most cases. Now, if you're selling, if you're selling a set of swipe files, if you're selling a resource repository or a shitload of content with no real direction, it's not a course. A course or education in this case, like in the, in this, from this perspective, has a start, it has a middle, it has an end, it has outcomes. You're trying to actually ensure that knowledge is acquired, knowledge is understood, knowledge is able to be applied. Now, my assumption is that you actually want to do that, but because you want to do that, you need to be the teacher.

Speaker 1:

You don't just get a degree. You have to prove that you know the stuff to get a degree. You don't get to become a apprentice or a a tradesperson without passing evidence-based requirements. You need to demonstrate your competency or your capability. So why is it? Why should it be any different in the, you know, edgapreneur or online education space? It shouldn't, but it's not sexy.

Speaker 1:

So the marketers who created this industry never did it because they wanted to make sure everyone felt good, hey, there's no rules here. There's no rules, you can come in and go whenever you want, it's okay. It's okay if you hey, you just pay us money, it's cool. If you don't learn anything, it's your fault anyway for not being motivated. Like, no, that's not, that's, that's not okay. And for for this, this part of the process, it's on you to decide how you want to confirm knowledge, which is what that column in the spreadsheets about you need to. So, each, each topic, you need to be able to answer that question, and that's where a lot of the tumbleweeds exist in this review is that very rarely will you see someone who has a full, a full column of being able to show hey, this is, this is how they're demonstrating their understanding, this is how I'm confirming their understanding of this, et cetera, et cetera. Yep.

Speaker 2:

Questions Questions I have. I have two questions. I hope I remember them both. So one with confirmation of knowledge. So for me, and specifically with what we're looking at, the vast majority of what I'm teaching is not conceptual. It is go do the thing. It's. I'm just going to go like I want you to go do this. So a lot of it could be confirming that they understand it, but that would be overkill. So that's why I only have the one homework piece at the end of like what's the big thing that they need to know. But is there like would it be smart to build in? Like this is what you should have completed by the end of this, because the lessons are going to be relatively short. It's going to be a here's your five, 10 minute overview of what this thing is. Now go do it. The stuff in the beginning, the mindset stuff in the beginning, that will go on longer. That's all conceptual. Yeah, so that's the vast majority. So when you've got a very how to driven because not all, not every course I've done is like that for sure. So I'm sure that people out there will have a range of what what they're offering, because I the way that I think about curriculum and you can tell me if you.

Speaker 2:

You said at some point I was going to try to step on your feet. Do the do? The only thing I think is, like for everything that I plot out, I think through, am I teaching them the what, the why or the how to? And I don't want to teach both in a single lesson. I think that gets too fuzzy. So the majority of what I teach in this is how to. So what's the most effective way of like? Do I need to do? You say like, stop what you're doing and go implement what you learned in this before you do? The next thing Is it should there be one big document per section that asks them to like? I mean, at the end of the day, you can't tell them how to do the work, but does my question? Is this making any sense? Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you can absolutely hold, like you can absolutely hold Lennis to account. Just no one does it. No one does it. Well, but it's To the, whereas we always know it's been mandatory it's so much like.

Speaker 2:

could you imagine having to submit all of the stuff that's in this? That would be.

Speaker 1:

Why is it a big deal? So let me give you an example, a relevant example. You go and sign up for a Hout. So, majority of courses yeah, they're more how to. Now it's like you're wanting to learn from the master how to do the stuff that they know how to do. So let's use one free example. Let's use your teaching Facebook ads. Lesson one set up your ads manager. Lesson two do your campaign. Lesson three do your ad set. Lesson four launch your ads. Yeah, let's just keep it there. Don't worry about whether it's accurate or not.

Speaker 1:

So if I open a free range, if I open a free range chicken approach to this I'm going straight to how to launch my ads. Right, I'm going straight to topic four. I'll come back to this. This is the learner. I'll come back to it. Yeah, gross clicking buttons and stuff. I'll come back to that. I just want to learn the stuff. That is what I think is really important. Cool, I'm going to go forward six months. I've got my ad understanding, I know what I need to do to launch the ads, but I'm still having trouble with my pixel. I'm still having trouble with, like, the structure of my campaign setup because I haven't done that. So then what's going to happen is hey, jimmy, how'd that Facebook ads course go? It was shit. I didn't learn anything. I still haven't launched my ads at six months down the track. Well, whose fault is that? Yours, the instructor? You failed In your inner city. You like that? You like that reference?

Speaker 2:

A little Oliver Queen in there.

Speaker 1:

A little Oliver Queen reference. So, to answer your question, yeah, so if topic one is set up, your ads manager, the assessment that's gated that locks the rest of the program down is upload a screenshot of your ad manager. That is it for sure. Every day of the week, bro, like that is that's exactly where it needs to be. So, is there too much? No, I don't think so, because some of the best programs I've ever done have held me to account every step of the way, and when I get to the end of it even though during it I'm like this is a little bit of a like, this is a little bit like painful for me you, as the instructor, are in there reminding me of why I'm here. You've come into this program because you believe that I can help you. Let me help you, but what I'm not going to do is I'm not going to let you end up six months down the track having picked the shiny object parts out of this course that you think are fun and exciting and enjoyable and give you freaking joy, only to see you not be able to implement and realize it. The reason I know this is because I used to be you. This is how I became the expert by following this process. So shut up and do the work Right. That's paraphrasing, of course, but imagine the difference.

Speaker 1:

I imagine the difference right, because when you said it, it's like oh, it's a lot, yes, yes is the answer. It is a lot of work for people to do, but when you come along on the journey as the instructor with them, that's really powerful. Like that's where you get the oh okay. Well, yeah, that's why. Okay, that's why it's locked.

Speaker 1:

If you just lock it and there's no justification as to why I can't access topic to watch your drop off rate like skyrocket, like your course will fall off a cliff overnight. But if phase zero or your intro module explains it, if in your and then this becomes sales and marketing fodder that no one else in your industry is going to be able to have that story of why the course is structured the way it is, that's a marketing asset for sure. Yep, yep, yep. And I like you. What, why? I like you what, why, how? I think that if you wanted to, if you wanted to add that in a as a, as a column into your spread, as to like which one of these, which one of these things that ticks off Cool, cool, cool Cool.

Speaker 1:

But yeah, I think that spreading, yeah, and I think, yeah, I think for you, I get, I get your submit your process maps. But is that the only thing that I've learned in that whole, in that whole first refining your process? So, yeah, if there's, if it is submitting your process maps great like that should be. That should be those three one, two, three, so that module will be locked. That's what I've, that's what I'm reading. There is that I'll get access to one, two, three, four topics. All the topics are in the yellow bucket and they're all colored yellow and they're all teaching me about yellow. They're all teaching me about process in some way, shape or form. There's not one that's get. All of a sudden messaging comes in right, it's not like, it's not like. This fluoro blue sits there at the middle, which again is something that a lot of course creators do just like fuck, this is. This must be so boring for people. I need to put something sexy in there. No, if it's not yellow and it's not in the yellow bucket, don't put any other colors in there. I like that. I like that you've got. You've got the topics that build on each other and then by the end of it, it's like submit your process maps, which is the realization of you understanding how to do this.

Speaker 1:

Maybe there might be some self assessment. So, self assessment versus assessment Self assessment is not graded, it's not. It's still important. I'd say it's even more valuable than the actual assessment. But yeah, self assessment is like hey, at the end of optimizing your business, maybe you ask them a couple of reflective questions. That's like hey, you should know how to do this, this, this. Do you feel comfortable doing that? Do you have all the information that you need? If the answers, if you've answered no to any of these, just go back to this, this part of the topic, and get comfortable. If not, reach out to support and let me know and I'll help you, cause then, hopefully, what that's doing for people is seeing that that now is basically protecting people from disappearing off a cliff because you're giving them the opportunity at all topics to check in with themselves. And then you're presenting hey, this is where you go for this info, or come and come and check in with me.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so here's where I start to get. This is a very specific to my own thing question that I feel like goes into the weeds. So like where we're, where we're looking, phase one so optimizing your business, the process of identifying, leveraging, testing, validating, systemizing like, depending on what process we're looking at, that they might not get to some of that until toward the end of the first year. So the thing, so the reason that the thing that unlocks unlocks phase two is the process maps. They might not have gone through the entire validation phase of each thing, but the process map is the key. And then we're not creating SOPs on something that's not validated. So certain things they might be able to start the SOPs, certain things they might not. So should that be like? Do we just explain that in the beginning?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So if you're so great question, I got it. I got. I got what your question is Right. So, because you're, because your program is so long, you can't do it the way that you. You can't do it the in depth way, so you can't.

Speaker 1:

If your whole program was a 12 month program on process and SOPs, then what I'm about to say is absolutely relevant. Yes, you could. So if it was a program just on yellow buckets and it was about yellow color and it was all about process, then yes, you would just do that, you would just go yep, hey, you need to validate everything. Week one, we're going to validate the first process. Week two, we're going to build the first process. Week three, we're going to review it. Week four, and then for the next 12 months, we're going to buy the end of the 12 months, you'll have 12 processes that you'll have validated, built, reviewed and launched. Awesome.

Speaker 1:

For this one, though, because you're dealing with you're like, you know your target audience, you know where they're. At the point of this topic, for me, what I understand of it is exactly what you said you're going to have a whole heap of processes and SOPs in your business, but what I want to teach you is the foundation of how to do this right, and we're going to pick one that's already validated in your business and I'm going to teach you, in this topic or in this module, how to do the SOP process map, and you're going to show me that you've grasped the concept. But once you've grasped it, for this the process is still the same. You just then. You then, as part of my community, as part of my incubator, as part of the rest of the program, we might set a goal that you do one of these every month in addition to the rest of the program.

Speaker 1:

So, perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect. Does that make sense? That you like, if you had, if you had a process, only course, super deep and super granular, but if you're going to do this, you still need to confirm that they understand how to do it. But then they've, they've got the ownership of going and applying that knowledge at scale in their own time, and then they'd probably check in with you, right, and go hey, I did five more. What do you think?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Nice. So we've got that. And then, yeah, what sort of like, what sort of hang out, so sort of what sort of support into it, like an interaction with you, the instructor, do they get? That's another column, so that doesn't have to be that's. That's something where there will be crickets in the spread, but for every ideally for every module, there should be something where they're actually getting to check in with you. So maybe it's a, you know, maybe it's a post, something in the community. Maybe it's a upload, an assessment and get some feedback. Maybe it's a call, because one of your things on your program is you've got a whole bunch of calls, right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, mine is the homework, the actual like homework that unlocks the next phase. That will get reviewed. And as we're talking through this, I feel like the other things like, okay, if you're creating an SOP, there would be like, if you want to put this into the group and ask for feedback, you can, but if you feel confident on it, then you don't have to, because to review every person's SOP, like that would be, yeah, that's, that'd be miserable, it'd be a full time job. But the homework that unlocks it is they'll get feedback on that. And what I'm currently thinking about is they should bring it to a call, like submit it and then we're going to talk about it on a call.

Speaker 1:

Nice Like a hot seat sort of scenario. Yeah, beautiful.

Speaker 2:

But the one-on-one calls that they get access to, other than the very first one, which is a very specific topic part of the onboarding process. Like the rest of them are, they can use it as they can use it on what they think they need it to be used on. Where do they need a phone friend? Where do they need a phone friend?

Speaker 1:

Got it? Yeah, perfect, I think as long as it's there and it's considered, it is a big impact on do I understand and can I do so, do I know how to do something and can I do it, and it will help with feel as well. So, being able to have those touch points and, like you said, you've got a in a perfect world. In a perfect world, if the price is right, I should be able to give you all my processes to review. But for you, as the creator of this program, if you're going to teach me yellow bucket process and that's it for 12 months, you know you're going to price it accordingly, you're going to resource your business accordingly to be able to provide that level of review capability that someone needs.

Speaker 1:

So, obviously, obviously that's something that's probably really relevant for everyone here is that your price point does dictate the amount of support that you can give, but it's not an excuse to not give support. So even the cheapest course on earth should have some level of support. It's just again, if you think about it in terms of, do they get access to you one on one for a course that's less than $300? No, no, and that's okay. But do they get community access and can you set up a community that supports itself and is an ecosystem of its own? Yeah, absolutely. Can you run group calls each month.

Speaker 2:

Yeah absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Can you have Q&A that can come through on sort of like a three to five day SLA. As long as you can do anything, folks, as long as you stop worrying about not telling people what's happening, like hey, sla like service level agreement, so it's like a time to response like a response time.

Speaker 1:

So again, if you've got a VIP program and they're paying a bit more coins, then they get a one day or a 24 hour turnaround time, but if they're just part of your standard program ecosystem, hey, the first place to post your question is posted in the community and the community is going to support you. Or you can send us an email, but the email turnaround time is like three to five days because we have to prioritize our other clients community groups, whatever who are more involved with us.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

But, yeah, supports, really supports, really non-negotiable. It's just then you can leverage, like tech, you can leverage technology and all that sort of stuff too. That's probably a cool place to sort of maybe round out our discussion, because I think, based on that, that is a pretty solid look at everything. Like we talked about outcomes, we talked about micro and macro, we talked about engagement methods so how's your content actually engaging? What is the tool that you're using? And to try and add some variability in there, we then looked at, like, how are you getting them to demonstrate knowledge, which is, I think, that was the real goal in terms of where a lot of people don't, or they don't do it enough or they're not confident to hold people to account? You need to be.

Speaker 1:

And then, obviously, what we've just talked about there in terms of support, that's a really good one, but then you could also then you could also then add in a couple of other ones, like communication or recognition of the learner, like do they get? Do they get something? And this is where your curriculum spreadsheet can also overlay into your systems and automation spreadsheet as well, so you can add things like yeah, they get an email, and then, in order for them to get an email you could have, like what tags do I need to apply when they create, when they complete this module? What artifacts do I need, like a certificate or a badge or a phone call, like whatever? Like you can add those sort of things into this spreadsheet as well. But fundamentally, like yeah, we're able to, we're able to do that pretty well, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, that was helpful Nice.

Speaker 1:

Nice.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that gives me some things to think about.

Speaker 1:

I think you're on the right track. I think I think for the people at home, does this get the Steve Ticket approval? Well, of course it does, and even if it didn't, it'd still roll out right, because it's you know, it's it's agent. No, if you, if you, if you were like this is a good one.

Speaker 2:

This is a dumpster fire and it needs. Even if you were like a mild dumpster fire. It needs improvement. I would, I would take that to heart. I wouldn't. I know you. I know you wouldn't.

Speaker 1:

But I knew it would Number one.

Speaker 2:

I don't want to have to do this again.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Number two I want to do right by the people. So if there, are.

Speaker 1:

I knew. I knew it wouldn't be. But for those, for those people that are hang around long enough to get this little tidbit of absolute course building gold do you mind if I tell them about your build along with me approach One of your clut, like one of your programs. You had a build along with me. Approach Mackenzie.

Speaker 2:

Just delete this If Adrian says no you know how you said I'm going to build.

Speaker 1:

I don't know where. It's not built yet. It's not built yet. I'm going to build it with you.

Speaker 2:

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 1:

Can we talk about that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, sure.

Speaker 1:

Can I highlight that? Cool. So here's a little tidbit, folks, little little secret for hanging around for as long as you did, cause this is a long one, but again, this process takes a long time, like when people do this with me, like it's we're hanging out for a while, like there's a lot of Steve in their life, so you've got to be ready for that.

Speaker 2:

You've got to be ready for that. That's why we're doing this, because I already have a lot of Steve in my life May as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, he may as well just add a little bit more. What's?

Speaker 2:

another hour.

Speaker 1:

What's another hour?

Speaker 2:

What's that song? The little bit of, little bit of Monica in my life.

Speaker 1:

Lou Vega Lou.

Speaker 2:

Vega yes, that's who that is there he is no.

Speaker 1:

But you know, if all this is sort of like whoa, this is overwhelming, Like, how do I know that? How do I know that it's going to work for me? How do I know that this is going to be a good thing? How do I know? No, no, no, no. Adrian came up with a way to do it without even having anything built yet, and made people fall in love with her by even telling them that.

Speaker 1:

So, hey, my program is not built yet. I'm going to build it with you for the people that jump on early. So if you jump in early before this day, day one is phase one, topic one, and you're going to be there while I build the content. So I'm going to be able to ask you it's very clever, Adrian, very clever. I'm going to be able to ask you, hey, did this make sense? Did this? Did this outcome that I'm trying to shoot for, did that land for you? Do you now know how to do this? And if the answers are no, guess what? Thanks for your time, folks. And hey, what a privilege that you've been able to get in here early for me to build this. I'm going to go rebuild and give you exactly what you want.

Speaker 2:

That's awesome, that is. I've mildly changed the way I'm doing things in that mildly. But the big thing that I'm doing right now is trying to figure out how I can best match where people are at with the content that I'm, because it's such a broad topic. So it's very much a like where are you, what do you need? And we can build that and build it around it and that's it. Thanks for your time, thank you.

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Adriane Galea

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